The Art Lawyers Association podcast: The Parthenon Marbles Dispute, a 'must listen' as it is relevant to the the status quo.

The introduction to the podcast states that this is "a discussion of one of the art world's greatest debates. Two of the foremost authorities on the subject, regarding the history and rightful ownership of the Parthenon or "Elgin" Marbles, Mark Stephens CBE and Alexander Herman" speak at length.

Mark interviews Alexander about his recent book on the subject, published late last year "The Parthenon Marbles Dispute"*, which offers a fresh take on the history of those famous works of ancient sculpture which once adorned the Parthenon Temple on the Acropolis, and continue to be displayed in the British Museum.

Janet Suzman, Chair of BCRPM described this podcast as "the most in depth discussion she had heard. "Tight and to the point, this podcast touches on all the relevancies of now."

To listen to the podcast, follow the link here.

We would also invite readers to look at the paper that the late George Bizos, member of the BCRPM, delivered at the 2012 International Colloquy held in London:"A Legal and Moral Issue, was a valid Firman issued?" Follow the link here to read George's words too.

 * Vice-Chair of the BCRPM, Paul Cartledge reviewed Alexander Herman's book, to read his words, follow the link here.

An exclusive by UK Correspondent Yannis Andritsopoulos in Ta Nea.

Experts believe that the British Museum has made a “massive shift” in its policy regarding the loaning of the Parthenon Marbles to Greece, possibly opening the way for the first constructive discussions on the artefacts’ return after decades of dead-ends.

In what appears to be a softening of its earlier stance, a museum spokesperson told Greek daily newspaper Ta Nea that borrowers “normally” acknowledge that the lender has title to the objects they want to borrow.

This is significant because until now, the museum has insisted that the acceptance of the lending institution’s ownership is a “precondition” for any loan.

However, when questioned by Ta Nea, the museum’s spokesperson stopped short of reiterating the word “precondition”, used by the museum for many years, repeatedly nixing the concerted campaign for the Marbles’ return Greece has been carrying out since the 1980s. Instead, the spokesperson replaced “precondition” with the word “normally”.

Experts in art and museum law and cultural heritage, British campaigners and Greek officials said that the new language marks an “important shift” and indicates that the museum is taking a step back by demonstrating a “greater openness” towards negotiating a possible loan with Greece.

Successive Greek governments have rejected offers from the British Museum to discuss the possibility of returning the 2,500-year-old sculptures on loan, arguing that it would mean renouncing any Greek claim to Phidias’s masterpieces, which have been in London for more than two centuries.

The British Museum claims to have legal title to the fifth-century B.C. antiquities. Greece, however, insists that the museum possesses the sculptures illegally and has been demanding their permanent reunification with the rest of the Parthenon frieze.

The apparent softening of the museum’s wording made some experts and lawyers think that the UK might be open for discussion about a loan without the once non-negotiable precondition of acknowledging ownership.

The museum has always said in written statements that “a pre-condition for any loan is the acceptance of the lending institution’s ownership”.

Last week, however, a British Museum spokesperson told Ta Nea that the borrowing institution “normally” acknowledges the museum’s ownership of the object they wish to borrow.

Asked three times whether it still stands by its previous statement, the spokesperson declined to answer.

“All loan requests are considered in exactly the same way. Of primary importance is the conservation of historical significant and delicate objects and whether travel would impact on their condition,” the museum said in a written statement.

“Borrowers also normally acknowledge that the lender has title to the objects they want to borrow. The Greek government doesn’t agree that the British Museum has title to the Sculptures which makes discussion of loans very difficult,” the spokesperson added.

‘Major shift’

“This is a major shift – and an admission in part – in the carefully calibrated language of diplomacy,” leading cultural property lawyer Mark Stephens told Ta Nea.

“This marks a changing of the guard at the British Museum and a softening of their stance, indicating a desire to do the ‘right thing’: return the marbles,” he added.

Stephens, an expert on museum, art, and cultural heritage law, explained that “previously, the museum had been very clear about not allowing the Marbles to go; it was always a complete blockage. But now it appears that that's no longer the case. I think they're drawing the distinction between their own previous position and the current one”.

He said: “they’re saying that loan requests are considered in light of three subjects: Historical significance, delicacy and whether they would be damaged in transit. Obviously, the Acropolis Museum in Athens meets those three criteria.”

“Previously, there was a certainty; that a precondition for a loan was that the Greek government had to acknowledge the British Museum's ownership. Now, they're saying that borrowers also ‘normally’ acknowledge ownership, so they’re saying ‘we don't always require this’. They're not saying that it is a precondition anymore. So, what you are seeing is a massive shift. They're opening the door,” said Stephens, who has been twice listed among the “100 most influential people in London” by the Evening Standard newspaper.

“They also say that the Greek government doesn't agree that the British Museum is the legal owner, which makes discussions of loans ‘very difficult’, but not impossible”, he added.

“I think there is a difference here, and I think it's a very marked difference. And so I think now is the time to begin the discussion and see if they're as good as their word,” Stephens said.

A Greek official noted that the new wording "potentially gives some leeway as to how the two parties could negotiate the reunification of the Sculptures through a Palermo-style solution".

Last month, a marble fragment that once adorned the Parthenon was returned to the Acropolis Museum in Athens. Stone VI on the eastern frieze of the Parthenon was previously held by the Antonino Salinas Regional Archeological Museum in Palermo, Italy. According to the Greek government, the fragment was returned as a “long-term deposit (‘deposito’)”, which means that ownership was not mentioned in the agreement.

‘Greater openness’

“I think (the new language) marks a slight but very important shift in the British Museum's position,” Alexander Herman, Director of the UK-based Institute of Art and Law and author of the recent book Restitution - The Return of Cultural Artefacts told Ta Nea.

“For a long time, the British Museum referred to the 'pre-condition' that Greece accept the Trustees’ title before a loan could be considered. This pre-condition was always unusual, since nowhere else was it required by the British Museum: it isn't referred to in the British Museum's Loans Policy, meaning that it would not have been a requirement for borrowers other than Greece,” he said.

According to Herman, “the new language is more in keeping with how loans usually work at the British Museum and elsewhere. It might be assumed that borrowers will accept a lender's title (otherwise why would they borrow?), but one never sees this expressly worded in a loan agreement.”

“In fact, in most cases one sees the opposite: lenders warrant that they have title to borrowers, since borrowers usually need assurances to avoid the risk of third-party claims during the course of an exhibition.”

He said: “So the new wording is certainly less categorical and appears to indicate a greater openness on the part of the British Museum to negotiate around the possibility of a loan. This is sensible. In Chapter 2 of my book, I show an example of a long-term loan secured by a Canadian First Nations group from the British Museum in 2005 that is still in place today. So there is precedent, even though it might only relate to a single object.”

“I realise that in Greece the idea of recognising the British Museum's title and of accepting a loan are unwelcome, but as I wrote in The Art Newspaper in 2019 there are ways of putting title aside, so as to avoid any political fallout. And a loan was acceptable in the case of the Artemis foot from Palermo, so there appears to at least be some tolerance for the L-word in Greece,” Herman concluded.

“‘Normally’ is always put into such statements in cases where there's a (no matter how remote) possibility of the 'norm' being violated, i.e. an exception to it being made. Therefore, the Greek Government could seek to take advantage of the possibility of an exception. But I would guess that the British Museum’s Trustees would not be willing to make an exception in such a case as the Marbles and moreover in favour of another state's Government,” Paul Cartledge, A.G. Leventis Professor of Greek Culture emeritus at the University of Cambridge and Vice-Chair of the British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles (BCRPM), told Ta Nea.

Growing pressure

Several recent repatriations of artefacts whose ownership has been in question has led to pressure being ratcheted up on the British Museum to follow suit.

The Parthenon Sculptures are regarded as some of the finest ever works of art and a symbol of the birth of Western civilisation. The campaign for their return was boosted by the recent about-turn by The Times, which argued for the ancient treasures to be returned to Greece. The newspaper had maintained for more than 50 years that the marbles should remain in the UK.

Ed Vaizey, who served as Culture minister under David Cameron, has also said that the Marbles should go back to Greece. In repeated polls, Britons have voiced support for the repatriation of the carvings.

Boris Johnson, the British Prime Minister, has been accused of hypocrisy after Ta Nea unearthed a 1986 article in which he accused Lord Elgin of “wholesale pillage” of the Parthenon and urged the British government to return the artefacts to Greece in a complete reversal of the position he now holds.

In an exclusive interview with Ta Nea published in March 2021, Johnson claimed that the Parthenon Marbles “were legally acquired by Lord Elgin under the appropriate laws of the time and have been legally owned by the British Museum’s Trustees since their acquisition.”

Asked if it would consider returning the Parthenon Marbles to Athens permanently and displaying identical copies in London (as was recently suggested by the Oxford-based Institute for Digital Archaeology and by two members of the House of Lords), the British Museum’s spokesperson told Ta Nea:

“The Parthenon Sculptures play a pivotal role in telling a world story at the British Museum. Together with the wider collection, they help modern-day audiences see how the world they know is shaped by the past. Millions of people visit each year to learn the stories of people and cultures from the earliest moments of human history to the present day”.

“There are replicas of the British Museum’s Sculptures in the Acropolis Museum, where they are displayed alongside the remaining sculptures removed from the Parthenon during the past few decades,” the spokesperson added.

“The British Museum’s purpose is to prompt debate, thought, understanding and learning. Only 50% of the Parthenon sculptures survive today, with much lost to history. Now two great museums share custodianship of the majority of the surviving sculptures. The British Museum is confident that these two institutions have well-defined roles.”

Asked about the possibility of a loan, the museum’s spokesperson said: “We have never been asked for a loan of the Parthenon sculptures by Greece or the Acropolis Museum. We have a strong relationship with colleagues at the Acropolis Museum and are very willing to explore any requests for a loan with them.

“We lend objects from the collection to countries all over the world. We believe in the importance of lending our collection, it strengthens the stories the collection tells and when displayed alongside other objects, they create new stories and conversations. In 2014 the museum lent one of the Parthenon sculptures to the State Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg, Russia, on the anniversary of that museum's foundation.”

However, the museum did not respond when asked whether an ‘indefinite’ loan could be agreed upon.

Instead, it said that “the British Museum will lend only in circumstances when the borrower guarantees that the object will be returned to the museum at the end of the loan period (the Trustees will normally expect the borrower to provide assurance of immunity from judicial seizure or comparable assurance from a government body or representative of appropriate authority).”

“The British Museum is not changing its tune as it still persists in the myth that a full story is being told by keeping half the figures taken from the Parthenon in London while the other half is shown in Athens which is so obviously a concocted story. Try telling it to a child whose natural logic will instantly spy the hole in the argument; they know perfectly well that half and half makes a whole,” Dame Janet Suzman, Chair of the British Committee for the Reunification of the Parthenon Marbles, told Ta Nea.

“The Marbles were made to be together and one day they will be where they belong. The same goes for all the disfigured reliefs, with half a horse here and the other half galloping over there, it’s crazy! The Fat Lady of Bloomsbury is still singing her old song, silly old thing, but the world is already tiring of it,” she added.

“The change in the wording from the British Museum has been noted. We sincerely hope this means a change of heart. Greece has been doing an exemplary job of conserving its ancient monuments on the Acropolis and in the Acropolis Museum. The primary historically significant story of the sculptures is that which they tell as one and in reference to the Parthenon, which still stands,” commented BCRPM's Marlen Godwin.

“The British Museum’s insistence that the narratives it creates with the fragmented sculptures it holds is of greater importance, is out of step with the changes that are already happening. Respect for such a peerless collection should trump any selfish need or greed to keep the sculptures so brutally (and criminally) divided. These sculptures belong to the Parthenon and that is still, firmly on Greek soil. Today’s inequalities of the past, such as the continued division of the sculptures isn’t going to erase the sublime display they command in Athens nor the understanding they provide to visitors. Here’s to the bright, best practice museum curators that are getting it right,” she added.

This news report was published in the Greek daily newspaper Ta Nea on 12 February 2022. To read it in Greek follow the link here or follow the link for the English version.

Interview by Ta Nea, UK Correspondent  Ioannis Andritsopoulos with the Director of the British Museum, Hartwig Fischer

Mr Fischer, do you think the Greeks are right to want the Parthenon Sculptures back?

I can certainly understand that the Greeks have a special and passionate relationship with this part of their cultural heritage. Yes, I understand that there is a desire to see all of the Parthenon Sculptures in Athens.

Would the British Museum consider returning the Parthenon Sculptures to Greece?

There is a long-lasting debate on this issue. The Parthenon Sculptures in Athens are being shown in a specific context and since 2009 in this wonderful new museum in a very fascinating display. And the Parthenon Sculptures that are in London tell different stories about a monument that has a very complex history. As a temple of Athena, and then a Christian church and then a mosque. It was blown up in the 1687, and abandoned and neglected. And then rediscovered. And the rediscovery is obviously part of European history. We are showing the Parthenon Sculptures which are at the British Museum in a context of world cultures, highlighting achievements from all over the world under one roof, and showing the interconnectedness of cultures. Since the beginning of the 19th century, the monument’s history is enriched by the fact that some (parts of it) are in Athens and some are in London where six million people see them every year. In each of these two locations they highlight different aspects of an incredibly rich, layered and complex history.

Greece says that it’s not just about returning the sculptures. It’s about reuniting the sculptures. Because they are a single work of art that should not be divided and fragmented. What’s your take on that?

People go to some places to encounter cultural heritage that was created for that site. They go to other places to see cultural heritage which has been moved and offers a different way to engage with that heritage. The British Museum is such a place, it offers opportunities to engage with the objects differently and ask different questions because they are placed in a new context. We should cherish that opportunity. You could of course, and with reason, regret that original contexts are dissolved.
When you move cultural heritage into a museum, you move it out of context. Yet that displacement is also a creative act. That is also true for the Acropolis Museum; the sculptures are out of their original context there. Nothing we admire in the Acropolis Museum was created for the Acropolis Museum.

It’s there though. The Museum faces the Acropolis. It’s not the same as being (the Sculptures) here in London.

Absolutely not. You’re right. They are close to the original context but they have still been taken away from it and been transformed through this act.

So the answer to the question if you would consider returning the Sculptures to Greece, is it a no? Is it a yes? Is it a maybe?

The British Museum was created in 1753 and opened in 1759 to allow people to not only encounter world cultures free of charge, but also to draw comparisons between cultures. Parliament who created this institution transferred the responsibility for this collection to the Trustees, stipulating that this collection has to be preserved for future generations. And that fiduciary responsibility the Trustees of the Museum take absolutely seriously. The Trustees feel the obligation to preserve the collection in its entirety, so that things that are part of this collection remain part of this collection. And to share them as much and wherever this is possible. The British Museum lends thousands of objects every year. And we also lend to the Acropolis Museum, we have excellent relations with our colleagues there.

But that is the reason why the Museum will not permanently return the Sculptures? What you just told me about the Trustees.

Yes.

However, the British government has the power to pave the way for the Sculptures’s return. The majority of the trustees (15 out of 25) are appointed by the government. The parliament could also legislate. So there is, in theory, a way for it to happen.

Well, if the British Parliament wants to legislate on this, then it is sovereign in doing so. It would have to pass primary legislation to change the legal basis that we are operating on today.

A few months ago, I had the opportunity to interview the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. He told me that if he became PM he would make sure the Parthenon Sculptures return to Greece. What’s your comment on that?

I think that this is Mr Corbyn’s personal view on the question, that you take note of. Obviously, that is not the stance and the view of the Trustees of the Museum.

And of the Director as well?

And of the Director.

Are there active talks between the Museum and Greek officials or authorities about a possible return of the sculptures?

There are no active talks.

According to all polls, the British people are in favour of the reunification. Does that mean anything to you?

I see the value of the objects that are part of the collection of the British Museum in being at the British Museum in the context that we just discussed.

There is a question over the scultures’s ownership. Would you accept that Greece is the legal owner of the Parthenon Sculptures?

No, I would not. The objects that are part of the collection of the British Museum are in the fiduciary ownership of the Trustees of the Museum.

Would you consider an open-ended loan to Greece?

There are two aspects to this: firstly, there are no indefinite loans. Every thing we lend, even on a long-term basis, will, at some point, return to the British Museum. And then it can go out again. The other aspect is that when we lend, we lend to those places where the ownership is acknowledged.

There were several media reports last month regarding a leak in the Duveen Gallery where the Marbles are housed. As you can imagine there was a negative reaction. What’s your explanation about what happened?

We had a tiny leak in one area of the roof in the Parthenon Sculptures’ galleries. A small quantity of rain entered the gallery, but did not touch any of the Sculptures and this was fixed right away.

But you could see plastic containers collecting water next to the Sculptures. Did you find this embarrassing to the Museum?

Buildings, especially buildings that are of a certain age, have to be taken care of. I don’t want the slightest little leak in any of the roofs of the Museum. We’re all aware of our responsibilities. And that we all have to do the utmost to live up to that responsibility. And that is what we do.

Could you reassure the Museum’s visitors that in the future when it rains again they’re not going to see the same phenomenon?

We will be renovating the building over the next few years. The immediate problem has been solved.

Have you visited the Parthenon and the Acropolis Museum?

Of course I have.

Did you like it?

You cannot ask me if I like the Parthenon! 

Why not? Some people might not like it. They have the right not to!

I think it’s one of the miracles of world culture. When you stand in front of it you are filled by awe and admiration. That also goes for the Museum, but in a different way. The Museum is a major achievement. It’s a beautiful museum. It’s very inspiring.

Don’t you think that something is missing there?

Oh, I think that everywhere in the world something is missing. That is our human condition.

What are the chances the Parthenon Sculptures returning to Greece?

I think I’ve answered that question.

You are the first non-British director of the British Museum since 1866. How does that feel, especially in times of Brexit?

I feel, not as a German, but as the person I am, extremely honoured to be the Director of this institution. And to be responsible for the future of this institution, along with all my colleagues and the Trustees and the patrons. I do not assume this role as a German or the son of somebody who was born French or somebody who is married to somebody who was Italian and is now French and in between was Peruvian. I assume this as a European, who is a citizen of the world and who cherishes this.

Do you think Brexit would affect the British Museum’s operation?

Yes. I think that, depending on what kind of Brexit will happen in the end, if it happens, it will have a very strong impact.

Do you fear a no-deal scenario?

A no-deal Brexit would have a more profound impact.

Why did you want to become Director of the British Museum?

It was not my plan from birth, nor when I started my career. But being asked to think about it, I thought that this is the most wonderful place in the world.

Have you thought about what you’d like to do after leaving the British Museum – whenever that happens?

I’ve never thought about those things. I concentrate on the work.

An option would be for you to be the Director of the Acropolis Museum. If you take the Marbles with you!

You are a very creative journalist!

For more on Hartwig Fischer's plans for the Beitish Museum, do read the article by Martin Baily in the Art Newspaper, 01 September 2017, follow the link here.

From Janet Suzman
Chair: British Committee for the Reunification
of the Parthenon Marbles (BCRPM)
1st January 2024

It really is very dispiriting that eminences like Lord Sumption (Sunday Times Dec 31st 2023) still make so many wrong assumptions. (Sorry). Here are some of them:

He fails to find a difference between a bas relief (the frieze, running round the perimeter of the building) and the 3D sculptures (metopes and pedimental figures). He can’t see why those pedimental figures make a stunning triangular pedimental shape when placed together, quite lost by enforced separation. The half of the extant frieze not in Bloomsbury is in Athens.

He avers that Lord Elgin obtained a ‘decree from the sultan authorising him to remove the sculptures.’ No such document has ever been found, only a permit (a ‘firman’) from a high official in Constantinople allowing him to retrieve ‘qualche pezzi di pietra’ already fallen down (it is an Italian copy) and to make drawings of pieces out of reach. Elgin, who kept a careful record of his expenses, bribed functionaries at every level to turn a blind eye to his crude attack on an already fragile building. Tourists reported shocking falls of precious metopes and such smashing to pieces, and a disdar – a guard at the time – was described as weeping at the mayhem inflicted on the building.

Elgin commandeered a ship of the line to transport his booty to Britain – so, taxpayers’ money – and had every intention of displaying the pieces at Broomhill, his Scottish seat, and none of sharing them with the public. Only when bankrupted after his rich wife left him did he turn to the British Government for a hasty sale.

Yet what’s done cannot be undone, and what matters now is a solution to a modern moral maze and not an old blame-game. And yet, Lord Sumption widens his argument to justify how artifacts have always voyaged to distant lands for our enlightenment. But this avoids the point; these Parthenon Marbles are sui generis. Elgin took far more than those cut off the Parthenon, but Greece is not asking for the caryatid he stole from the Erechtheum, nor is it asking for the Winged Victory of Samothrace from the Louvre.

In 2019 at a conference in Athens, I was invited into the then President’s rooms in his official residence where he took care to explain to me that Greece is proud that Hellenic pieces are in the Louvre (apart from Parthenon pieces…) and proud that around the world Greece’s treasures are displayed. “Let me be clear: we want only those pieces that Elgin took off the Parthenon itself”, he told me. The Greeks first claimed those Marbles when it was freed of Ottoman rule and became the Hellenic Republic in the 1830s. Melina Mercouri cast a spotlight on that claim in the 1980’s. Boris Johnson, when he was still an honest scholar, wrote a spirited article for the Oxford Union paper pleading for their return to the land of Achilles. The world is today more aware of cultural plunder than during colonial times. The British Museum is the only major museum in the world staying silent about its often ill-gotten contents. All of UNESCO is aware of this silence and is finding it embarrassing.

Sumption seems unmoved that panels from Duccio’s altarpiece are divided between nine museums, as if it might be diminished in some way were the whole to be displayed as Duccio intended. That altarpiece is a separate inspiration, whereas the Parthenon marbles are part of the very fabric of the building; it is one thing, conceived and carved as one thing. Alexander Herman (‘The Parthenon Marbles Dispute; Heritage, Law, Politics’ – Hart, Bloomsbury, 2023) makes this point: ‘Because we live in democratic times, we tend to have a predilection for remnants that connect us to the Athenian prototype. For this reason the Parthenon as a symbol continues to dominate’.

After two hundred years in London and badly displayed in a grey gallery in Bloomsbury since the 1960s, the Marbles have done their work of enlightening Europe to the glories of the ancient world. The United Kingdom is second to none in classical scholarship; the British Museum has millions of other ancient artifacts in its collections, and wonderful objects are promised for exhibition by the Greeks themselves to compensate for the (inevitable) return. George Osborne, Chairman of the BM Trustees, is embarking on an important act of international co-operation.

As to numbers, only one sixth of the 6 million annual visitors that enter its portals visit the Duveen Galleries. Approximately that same number passes through the Acropolis Museum in Athens, and why, one wonders, should not a Greek child be as astounded as a British one at the god-like figures caught in a high wind off Mount Olympus, and be as proud as Punch that his distant ancestors were so utterly brilliant with white stone? Why should the Greek people not thrill to such visions? They might be as far down the line as the Druids are to the English, but just listen to the fuss if half of Stonehenge had been nicked and plonked in Potsdamerplatz.

To read Lord Sumption's article, 'The Elgin Marbles weren’t stolen — Greece is just exploiting our weakness' follow the link to The Times.